More Questions on Prayer

I am fast coming to the conclusion we have no clue as to praying. In Charles Hodge's book "Prayer: the Voice of Faith" he compares Elijah's prayer for it not to rain to our prayers. Imagine, Elijah praying that it not rain and us praying for someone to "regain a portion of health." Hodge thinks it is comparable.

A few questions for your cogitation:

1. Do you know of any situation in the Bible where God answered a prayer that was not necessary for the fulfillment of his "plan?"
2. Do you know of any situation where God answered a prayer that was meant only for the appeasement of one individual?
3. Do you now of any occasion where Jesus healed someone and Jesus did not benefit from the healing such as verifying he was from God?
4. What is the purpose of God or Jesus to heal one of us?

On one occasion Jesus told his followers,"Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." On another occasion Jesus said "whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

1. Who answers our prayers Jesus or God?
2. To whom should we pray.
3. Does it make a difference?
4. How do you explain the two comments?
5. If we do not know who will be answering how do we know whom we should address?

Like us Hodge keeps saying "we believe in prayer" but it just may be ignorance talking.

Sip Test vs a CLT (central location test)

In today's The Mountain Press there is an article about the Tennessee Shindig and their hiring a producer to create a new show. They say they are told by the visitors that they have the best talent in the area so they have decided to build on that. Have you been to the Tennessee Shindig? If so do you think they have better talent than the other shows? For a show that has changed format almost every year it seems they do not fully understand what they want to do with all that "talent." I remembered Al's pride that the GSMCOC visitors are expressing fact when they compliment him and GSMCOC. Delusional may fit us too.

In his book "Blink: The power of thinking without thinking" Malcolm Gladwell has an account of New Coke. It provides insight into how the best and brightest minds with the best research and fact based analysis can often bamboozle themselves into a most disastrous course of action.

Remember the history? - The Pepsi Challenge, Pepsi tastes better, Coke responds with New Coke and then kaboom.

• Pepsi gaining market share
• The Pepsi Challenge - the majority of tasters preferred Pepsi
• Additional market research shows a preference for Pepsi - tastes must have changed
• New Coke under development
• New Coke - sweeter and more like Pepsi starts to perform better in taste tests
• Launch New Coke
• Major crisis launches the return of Classic Coke

The story is a good illustration of how complicated it is to find out what people really think.

Gladwell's insights:

• Taste tests don't tell the real story - there is always a bias for sweetness in a sip. (People knew that.)
• Drinking a whole bottle or can is a more accurate comparison - sweetness can get overpowering. (People knew that as well.)
• Home use tests over time will give you better information. (Most people knew that.)
• The entire principle of a blind taste test was ridiculous - in the real world no one drinks Coca-Cola blind!
• Pepsi's success in the blind taste tests never translated to much in the real world.
• The error was in attributing the loss of market share to the product, as opposed to the good things Pepsi was doing with branding.
• All of the unconscious associations and emotions we have of the brand, the image and the packaging were lost to "the guys in white lab coats."

Different does not mean better though individuals may think it is i.e. a sip versus drinking a whole bottle; listening to one or two sermons versus a steady diet of self promotion. I heard some comments from visitors that Al is telling more stories than before. GSMCOC is no different than any non-growing congregation in that refusing to think permits us to convince ourselves everything is going well. Look at what happened to Coke when they were wrong.

Did Jesus Take My Place on the Cross? Did I have a Place?

When I say Jesus took my place on the cross am I saying I could have done what Jesus did for me but I do not have to because he did me a favor by taking my place? Utah gives the option of execution by firing squad for prisoners who opt for it. It seems they take literally that without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness of sins and therefore permit the condemned to shed his own blood.

I have always understood Jesus did something I could not do. On the other hand, his going to Hell seems to allow for him taking my place because that is something I could have or would have done if it were not for his sacrifice.

Discovering What You Already Have - - - Major W. Ian Thomas

If you are a Christian, I have no blessing to offer you, because you have them all in Jesus Christ. All you can do is begin to discover the blessings in Him that you already have but have not yet possessed in experience.

The moment you are redeemed and the moment the Lord Jesus is come to indwell your redeemed humanity, God has given you the plenitude of heaven. You will never be wealthier than the day you were redeemed, but you can live in self-imposed poverty for the rest of your life if want do.

What we want to do is to discover how to explore and enjoy all that God has already given you if you are saved. It will be the Devil's business to prevent it.

Where, O Where has Oral Gone Now...

When I lived in Springfield Ohio Oral Roberts held a tent meeting for about a week. A group of teenage boys used to go watch him heal people. I used to watch him on television while my mother was fixing lunch on Sundays. One time a woman with a migraine headache was being healed. At that time Oral's technique was to hit the person in the forehead with his open hand and yell "Be Healed!". The healed person would fall back and the helpers would catch them and lay them on the floor. After a few minutes to collect themselves they would stand up and talk with Oral. Considering the migraine I can still see that woman as Oral hit her in the head. Ouch... It apparently worked because she said she did not have a migraine anymore. We may not believe he healed anyone but a lot of people do.

 

Now is the time we determine how we will treat other religious groups. If we believe Oral to be in Hell I imagine we should be making more of an effort to counteract his influence. If we do not believe Oral is in Hell then maybe we should "fellowship" those followers. Realizing the Father is all wise we have to wrestle with the fact that based on what we believe the Bible teaches Oral deserves an eternity roasting on the fires of Hell. I have to admit it is difficult putting him on the same level as Hitler or Al Capone or any of the obvious bad guys. But apparently that is where we will find Mother Teresa.

Thanks, John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN

Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Website: http://www.greenbriersolutions.com  
Blog: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/

If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

Re: Strategy, Target, Purpose

Someone said "It is amazing how much you can accomplish when it doesn't matter who gets the credit. It seems to me the church should epitomize that attitude. Instead we insist on honoring the reverends as well as reverends in training as we will to night in our Christmas party. We're even going to honor the janitor. Amazing.

Concerning the question about what a 38 year old Christian man would do on this day or any given day during AD 56? And what would he do to fill his day on the first day of the week? I'm not sure he would have done anything differently than we do today. Then it would have been easier for a pagan and a Christian to recognize each other. Today, Pagans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Latter Day Saints, etc pretty much look alike. According to our definition of Christians they are all pagans and difficult to identify.

Billy Graham had the right idea though he probably thought all those politicians cared what he thought. Remember all those pictures in the paper with the caption identifying Graham as the "spiritual advisor?" Politicians used him to convince the voters they were Christian. Obama tried that with Rick Warren but he did not take as well as Billy Graham.

I am convinced if we can ever accept that Sunday is not worship and that the purpose of assembling is to encourage each other to love and good works we just might leave the service and go about doing good works. As it is most leave the service feeling tired, bewildered, frustrated, and wondering why they were there. But for the church to admit that would put most preachers out of work and that will not happen in our life time.

And no, until we recognize there is a problem we have no reason to correct anything. Alcoholics, drug addicts and pedophiles can attest to that. As a child I sat close to the TV to watch it and I could not read what the teacher wrote on the blackboard. I played second base and would miss ground balls hit directly at me. I lost it around the pitcher's mound. One day the coach told me that when I had the requisite physical I should have my eyes examined. I believe he was being sarcastic. I did and I have worn glasses ever since. My parents did not associate my actions with the inability to see and neither did I. Congregations do not associate the lack of growth with the lack of leadership. When you read what God did to "equip the body" you can easily see that GSMCOC as well as the average congregation have no one equipping them. To say that in a meeting will start an argument and bring forth much denying especially by . . .

Did that answer what you were asking?

Thanks, John Jenkins
865-803-8179 cell
Gatlinburg, TN

Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Website: http://www.greenbriersolutions.com
Blog: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/

If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Ray & Martha <arandm@charter.net> wrote:

Some good thoughts that are disturbing. I think we have tried to get this point across with the men before and you told me it won't happen til some one or three people want it to happen. Thanks for not giving up. However, can I refer to this "email that I received" in the men's meeting? I'm not sure this week would be the right time though.

Before I respond, I want you to consider a question I was going to pose to you before I ever opened the computer this morning.

What would a 38 year old Christian man do on this day or any given day during AD 56? And what would he do to fill his day on the first day of the week?


If we don't think we are sick will we go to the doctor or take some measure to help us get over what ever causes us to be sick?

Jesus, Peter and Paul stated their own mission,with purpose, knowing that they were the exmple at that time. Group activities are not addressed here.If group activities are what we are supposed to be about, they must be organized and led by dedicated, competent, rightly passionate, Godly and humble Christiian people who understand and seek to follow the great commandment. It starts with me, the individual or you the individual. And we must function as part of the body and not as the whole body.

I do not recall scripture identifying as leaders or great teachers those who sought recognition or "credit" for any worthwhile service or those who didn't consider sacrifice for His cause an honor. I suspect ther are some great leaders who were never menntioned in scripture but have their name etched in the "book of life".
RAY

----- Original Message -----

From: John Jenkins

To: Ray Slate

Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 4:32 PM

Subject: Strategy, Target, Purpose

In case you need some help sleeping, you can read this.

Developing Our Strategy

Who is Our Target?

No congregation can reach everyone. A radio station cannot appeal to everyone's taste in music. A station that alternated its format between classical, heavy metal, country, rap, reggae, and southern gospel would alienate everyone. No one would listen to that station.

Jesus had a target: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15:24

Paul had a target and Peter had a target: "On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised…" Galatians 2:7

A missionary must understand the culture of the people he intends to evangelize. Imagine a photographer shooting pictures without taking time to focus? What hunter would stand on the top of a hill and shoot randomly into the valley without taking aim at something?

Without a target, our efforts may be just wishful thinking.

Developing a Clear Target

Who can we reach?

The New Testament shows the Gospel spread through relationships. Andrew told his brother, Peter; Philip contacted Nathaniel; Matthew held a dinner party for other Tax Collectors; the woman told everyone in her village.

What kinds of people already attend? We'll reach those to whom we relate. We'll attract who we are, not who we want.

A successful fisherman is able to "read" the lake, or stream, or river, etc and figure out where fish are; he knows the time of day they like to eat; he knows the bait or lure to use depending on the type of fish; he knows when to change bait as temperature changes; he knows how deep to drop the line into the water; he knows when to move to a new location. He catches fish on their terms.

If we are to reach people we need to:

· Know what we are fishing for;

· Go where the fish are biting;

· Learn to think like a fish;

· Catch fish on their terms;

· Understand and adapt to their culture;

The longer you are a believer, the less you think like an unbeliever.

Our Biblical Purpose

A clear target only develops when we have three things in place.

1. We know our Biblical purpose;

2. We define whom in our community we are best equipped to reach;

3. We decide a strategy to reach those individuals.

It's going to take some time to come up with some clear answers to #2 and #3 but how about the Great Commandment and the Great Commission as an easily stated purpose that is Biblical and unique to us.

Great Commandment:

Matthew 22:37-40

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

Great Commission:

Matthew 28:19-20

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Planning with Purpose

Few churches are planning with purpose and precision. Most are devoted to simply maintaining existing programs and serving the present membership. Challenge and change are not in their vocabulary.

We must rise above mediocrity to excellence. Comfortable pews seldom stay filled. Every church must set long-range and short-range goals. In charting the future we must ask:

1. What do we want to accomplish? (A statement of purpose)

2. When do we want to accomplish it? (Long-range and short-range goals)

3. How do we want to accomplish our goals (Workable plans to achieve our goals)

4. Who will lead? (This involves assignment, responsibility and accountability)

5. How much will it cost? (This should only be asked after everything else has been considered)

Our Goals Must Become Our Eyes by which we see the Future

Dreams die first – then churches.

Why Strategic Planning is Important in Evangelism

Unless there is planning and strategy nothing happens. Think about the new Christians in your congregation. How did they come to Christ? Congregations should develop strategic plans.

Strategic planning helps us toward our goal, helps us devise means and develop grids to measure effectiveness.

Strategy, Target, Purpose

In case you need some help sleeping, you can read this.

Developing Our Strategy

Who is Our Target?

No congregation can reach everyone. A radio station cannot appeal to everyone's taste in music. A station that alternated its format between classical, heavy metal, country, rap, reggae, and southern gospel would alienate everyone. No one would listen to that station.

Jesus had a target: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."  Matthew 15:24

 

Paul had a target and Peter had a target: "On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised…" Galatians 2:7

A missionary must understand the culture of the people he intends to evangelize. Imagine a photographer shooting pictures without taking time to focus? What hunter would stand on the top of a hill and shoot randomly into the valley without taking aim at something?

Without a target, our efforts may be just wishful thinking.

Developing a Clear Target

Who can we reach?

The New Testament shows the Gospel spread through relationships. Andrew told his brother, Peter; Philip contacted Nathaniel; Matthew held a dinner party for other Tax Collectors; the woman told everyone in her village.

What kinds of people already attend? We'll reach those to whom we relate. We'll attract who we are, not who we want.

A successful fisherman is able to "read" the lake, or stream, or river, etc and figure out where fish are; he knows the time of day they like to eat; he knows the bait or lure to use depending on the type of fish; he knows when to change bait as temperature changes; he knows how deep to drop the line into the water; he knows when to move to a new location. He catches fish on their terms.

If we are to reach people we need to:

·          Know what we are fishing for;

·          Go where the fish are biting;

·          Learn to think like a fish;

·          Catch fish on their terms;

·          Understand and adapt to their culture;

The longer you are a believer, the less you think like an unbeliever.

Our Biblical Purpose

A clear target only develops when we have three things in place.

1.      We know our Biblical purpose;

2.      We define whom in our community we are best equipped to reach;

3.      We decide a strategy to reach those individuals.

It's going to take some time to come up with some clear answers to #2 and #3 but how about the Great Commandment and the Great Commission as an easily stated purpose that is Biblical and unique to us.

Great Commandment:

Matthew 22:37-40

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

Great Commission:

Matthew 28:19-20

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Planning with Purpose

Few churches are planning with purpose and precision. Most are devoted to simply maintaining existing programs and serving the present membership. Challenge and change are not in their vocabulary.

We must rise above mediocrity to excellence. Comfortable pews seldom stay filled. Every church must set long-range and short-range goals. In charting the future we must ask:

1.      What do we want to accomplish? (A statement of purpose)

2.      When do we want to accomplish it? (Long-range and short-range goals)

3.      How do we want to accomplish our goals (Workable plans to achieve our goals)

4.      Who will lead? (This involves assignment, responsibility and accountability)

5.      How much will it cost? (This should only be asked after everything else has been considered)

Our Goals Must Become Our Eyes by which we see the Future

Dreams die first – then churches.

Why Strategic Planning is Important in Evangelism

Unless there is planning and strategy nothing happens. Think about the new Christians in your congregation. How did they come to Christ? Congregations should develop strategic plans.

Strategic planning helps us toward our goal, helps us devise means and develop grids to measure effectiveness.

 

Who are the Saved?

Redemption is "in Christ Jesus." His cross and His sacrifice in death are what brought about redemption. Redemption is because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ, God's very own Son. The saved are united with Christ into his death through immersion. That fact is critical to a person's destiny. By the kindness of God, Jesus came to seek and to save the lost. Jesus said he that believes and is immersed will be saved. He that does not believe will be condemned (or damned or judged against). Jesus associates not believing with not being immersed. Does grace save? The kindness of God saves through our conviction that God is and he rewards those who diligently seek him. Seeking requires action.  

 

The question becomes: What does one have to believe to receive the forgiveness of sins.

Deny or Not?

Many are convinced they would never deny Jesus. Nothing in the Bible suggests God or Jesus will intervene in persecution. If that is correct there is the possibility we could find ourselves in a situation of denying Jesus or watch ourr spouse and/or children tortured and killed. This suggests we ought to appreciate our situation instead of taking it for granted. Based on what I hear in prayers we do not intellectually absorb what is prayed for and since we do not expect results we do not wonder why when there are none.

Does Grace Save?

There is a book  "If Grace Is True, Why God Will Save Every Person." Authors are Philp Gulley and James Mulholland. a couple of Quaker ministers, whatever that entails. Also on the cover is a quote from Saint Augustine "There are many who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments." The book is interesting but each of their points is supported by an 'I think' instead of a reference in the Bible. Similar to a lot of comments we hear in our Bible classes.
 
Assuming some will be saved and some will be lost, do we understand what that belief means? My question is: What does one have to believe to be saved and what does one have to do to be saved? Can they believe right and not do or can they not believe but do or does it take both?
 
Within the Church of Christ there are many 'views' on what is right and wrong. There are divisions between the instruments and non-instruments as well as divisions within the non-instrument group. Divisions to the point of refusing to acknowledge the other can be Christian. How can any be saved?
 
If we are going to disagree with Gulley and Mullholland it might be worthwhile to know where specifically we disagree and to know what defines saved? Is immersion the dividing line? When we go to the funeral of a person not associated with the Church of Christ do we in our hearts believe they are saved? If we believe they are lost but have not done everything possible to convince them otherwise can we possibly be saved? Does grace cover our misdeeds but not the misdeeds of others? Do we agree with Gulley and Mulholland but at the same time deny that we do?