Re: Newsline Article - Church Growth

 

I understand the bible has many examples of individuals and congregations helping missionaries whom God had told to go leaving them without option if they were to obey. I believe some of those churches in the NT sent Paul and others after God told them he wanted Paul et al to go.

 

Folks say the "great commission" was meant for us but then say we can send. Did Jesus give the apostles the option to go or to send? Surely anyone can help anyone anytime to do something they want to do even though God has not instructed them to do it.

 

We already use the collection for the "poor saints in Jerusalem" as motivation to contribute to our own comforts and rummage sales are sinful. Others agree the bible says to baptize but it really means pour or sprinkle or whatever is convenient.  If we keep the bible in context our responsibilities as well as our options remain clear.

 

 

 

During the interview the father said he had discussed possibility and probability with his son to no avail and when asked said he would not try that again.

 

Following the interview with the father, the interviewer spoke with a mother of different children. Unknown to the interviewer the mother had majored in statistics in college in China, her home country.

 

Since the shooting she says she has been focused on a rule of statistics she learned in college, which she calls the "large number certainty theorem" and explained how it applies. "We know that many people have guns, and we know that a certain number of people have disordered minds or bad intentions, and we also know that this is a huge country. In other words, the base is big. So, you know, mathematically, something somewhere will happen with certainty."

 

Fortunately the father of the 10-year-old did not discuss that theorem with his son.

 

 

 

The "helping us" is where I get off track. We are doing God's bidding why shouldn't he help us, if he can, without being asked? Why wouldn't he? 

 

Jesus said he healed some people to show other folks he had the power to forgive sin. He did one thing that was easily verified to support folks believing another that could not be verified. That was then but today nothing? Are we sure we are not missing something? Are we sure we are as "correct" as we say we are? I doubt it and I wonder and I think of Paul's letter to the church in Thessalonica and his comments about folks not loving truth and God sending a delusion. 

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

[shouting to several prisoners]
Barney Fife: "Now here at the Rock we have two rules. Memorize them until you can say them in your sleep. Rule number one: obey all rules. Rule number two: no writing on the walls."

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 7:25 AM, <abehel@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

People have mental assent but without action there is no real belief.   The situation with the father and son illustrates the deep desire of a parent to accomplish something

positive by using a process that undermines the very purpose of the action.   I deal with trauma, acute stress and anxiety, and PTSD almost every day.   His intent was good

and would have worked with some children, but without knowing a lot of background information about the father and the son and their previous revlationship, it is hard to say

what effect his approach will have long-term, or whether he should have used an entirely different approach.  I would have suggested that all the children as a group, along with

their parents and teachers meet at a neutral place first for an activity, followed by the entire group arriving at their "new school" with parents, teachers, and security officers

present when they went inside to their "new" classroom".    It will be hard for the children to ever go back to their old school.   I know the point of your comment was about

trust, and not a therapeutic approach...just rambling thoughts of mine.

 

Some commands are specific and some have generic applications.   I believe God never intended to say that everyone was to leave their homes and travel the world to

preach.   Plenty of Scriptures in Acts and the Epistles speak of churches sending Paul and contributing to his ministry.   I believe that satisfies the generic meaning of

the passage for those who will do better to stay home and support others.   To my knowledge, though, I can't remember a time when the churches of Christ have ever

had more than 500 foreign missionaries in the field.   That doesn't mean no one was "going" as Christians seem to exist in many countries where we have never sent

and 'American" missionary.   We are not the only Christians charged with the mission of sharing Christ witht he world.

 

What do I believe God will do when we pray for spiritual growth?   I believe when Christians pray for spiritual growth and they stay in the word the Holy Spirit does what

he came to do...He "helps us".  

 

Al

-----Original Message-----
From: John Jenkins
Sent: Dec 30, 2012 9:10 PM
To: abehel@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Newsline Article - Church Growth

When Jesus told the disciples to "go in to all the world" did they have the option to go or to send?

 

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

 

I do not understand they had a choice. Jesus was not speaking to anyone other than those eleven and he was telling them to go. They had no option if they were to obey. If we accept that he was speaking to us we also would have no option but to go.

 

Recently I heard an interview of a father of two children who had survived the school shooting in Connecticut one of the children, a boy I believe 10 or so, cries  lot and refuses to go to school. The father and boy have worked up to going to the school the boy should be attending and walking the halls, holding hands. The boy keeps the keys to the car in his pocket so his father cannot leave without him. When the father attempts to get the boy to "trust" him the boy says, "Last Friday if you had told me I would be safe you would have been wrong." That statement along with the fact the boy keeps the car keys in his pocket while he and his father are walking the halls of the school indicates he does not believe his father and worse does not trust his father. My guess is their relationship is changed forever.

 

Church growth may be hampered by the fact most members 1) do not believe what they are told by preachers/teachers; 2) to not believe one has to be a member of the Church of Christ to be saved; and 3) do not believe assembling with others is necessary nor is reading/studying the  bible necessary. As I mentioned before when in one of your classes you said we want to go to Heaven because that is where our favorite people are and I said no, your favorite people are there each individual has to answer that question for themselves. It appears most people claiming to be Christian do not believe the "company position" on a number of subjects.

 

In your Newsline article when you say church growth depends on prayer what specifically do you expect God to do?

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

[shouting to several prisoners]
Barney Fife: "Now here at the Rock we have two rules. Memorize them until you can say them in your sleep. Rule number one: obey all rules. Rule number two: no writing on the walls."

Newsline Article - Church Growth

When Jesus told the disciples to "go in to all the world" did they have the option to go or to send?

 

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

 

I do not understand they had a choice. Jesus was not speaking to anyone other than those eleven and he was telling them to go. They had no option if they were to obey. If we accept that he was speaking to us we also would have no option but to go.

 

Recently I heard an interview of a father of two children who had survived the school shooting in Connecticut one of the children, a boy I believe 10 or so, cries  lot and refuses to go to school. The father and boy have worked up to going to the school the boy should be attending and walking the halls, holding hands. The boy keeps the keys to the car in his pocket so his father cannot leave without him. When the father attempts to get the boy to "trust" him the boy says, "Last Friday if you had told me I would be safe you would have been wrong." That statement along with the fact the boy keeps the car keys in his pocket while he and his father are walking the halls of the school indicates he does not believe his father and worse does not trust his father. My guess is their relationship is changed forever.

 

Church growth may be hampered by the fact most members 1) do not believe what they are told by preachers/teachers; 2) to not believe one has to be a member of the Church of Christ to be saved; and 3) do not believe assembling with others is necessary nor is reading/studying the  bible necessary. As I mentioned before when in one of your classes you said we want to go to Heaven because that is where our favorite people are and I said no, your favorite people are there each individual has to answer that question for themselves. It appears most people claiming to be Christian do not believe the "company position" on a number of subjects.

 

In your Newsline article when you say church growth depends on prayer what specifically do you expect God to do?

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

[shouting to several prisoners]
Barney Fife: "Now here at the Rock we have two rules. Memorize them until you can say them in your sleep. Rule number one: obey all rules. Rule number two: no writing on the walls."

Was Luke Inspired or Just a Reliable Historian?

The longer one is a believer the less they think like an unbeliever. They take things for granted without question. Those they are trying to influence may not be so trusting.  It seems to me what is scripture and who is inspired are subjects worth investigation.

In your class you mentioned folks thinking the bible difficult to read and to understand. The way the church studies the bible makes it appear to be a very large book. It is smaller than Tolstoy's War and Peace and can be read in less than 80 hours. If the reader is a slow reader say 120 hours or 160 hours or they can listen to it. People read novels but get bored reading the bible. One of the responsibilities of the group is to encourage the individual.

Christian Chronicle has a story:

"Three teens who attend the Concord Road Church of Christ decided to memorize 100 Bible verses each as part of Lads to Leaders/Leaderettes. Jacob Sees, Daniel Stetzinger and Alex Windon challenged the congregation to join them. With the enthusiastic support of the church's six elders, 116 Concord Road members accepted the challenge."

I suspect if the leaders of GSMCOC had shown any interest in the Book of the Month idea more folks would be involved. It takes a few minutes a day and two hours a month to meet with others and talk about what they read. It surely cannot be they do not have the time. Of course they could be too busy. Imagine being too busy to read a book thought to be inspired by their God. We may have too many bibles. If we had less we might see it as important.

The reason for this email: Do you have any idea why Luke is thought to be inspired by anything other than an interest in supporting his friend Theophilus?

Luke:  Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled^[a] among us, ² just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. ³ With this in mind about, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, ⁴ so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

Acts: In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote all that Jesus began to do and to teach ² until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

 

John Jenkins

865-803-8179  cell

Gatlinburg, TN

 

 

 

Email: jrjenki@gmail.com

Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/

          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

 

  

[shouting to several prisoners]

 

 

Barney Fife: "Now here at the Rock we have two rules. Memorize them until you can say them in your sleep. Rule number one: obey all rules. Rule number two: no writing on the walls."

 

 

 

 

All Scripture...

Nice class. My comments address context not application.

 

The English Standard version of Paul's first letter to Timothy reads:

 

"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

 

Paul first refers to Timothy's familiarity with the sacred writings then explains that all scripture is breathed by God etc... Unless the sacred writings are a subset of all scripture the "all scripture" were in existence during Timothy's youth therefore eliminating the possibility of our New Testament being included. Do you suppose the author's of the various books and letters knew or considered they were contributing to what would be come the Bible?

 

Paul says those sacred writings are able to make Timothy wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. I wonder how many agree with Paul's categorization of those sacred writings. I would think folks would think only the New Testament would do that.

 

 

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

[shouting to several prisoners]
Barney Fife: "Now here at the Rock we have two rules. Memorize them until you can say them in your sleep. Rule number one: obey all rules. Rule number two: no writing on the walls."

Security in the Classroom

Our Constitution prohibits government from controlling the media although; Abraham Lincoln did close various newspapers critical of his administration. Congress let him violate the Constitution. Do we want to throw the Constitution under the bus?

These shootings cannot be prevented because we do not understand what security requires. I am interested in hearing how the security measures in place in Sevier County schools would have prevented the Newtown shooting. The fact of the matter is they will not. Our security only annoys those who feel compelled to go along with it.

Security requires multiple armed guards inside and outside all school buildings positioned far enough apart so they cannot be neutralized as a group with weapons in hand ready to be fired. Attack dogs would help especially if they were permitted to run loose at least outside the buildings. Security requires guards be placed on the roof of every school building as well as on the perimeter. Security requires the protected live in a prison. Security requires we lockup every person who looks like a threat, remember the internment of anyone who looked Japanese at the beginning of our participation in WWII? How do you lockup all those who look like Timothy McVeigh? Regardless, we are not ready to do that. We live in a free society and citizens have the right to own and carry weapons. Imagine if the principal as well as the teachers at Newtown had been trained and armed.

I know a woman who teaches in the California prison system. She was trained in hand to hand self defense as well as how to fire a weapon effectively (i.e. to kill). The doors of her classrooms have windows so guards can keep watch and there is a yellow line that separates her from her students. She is instructed to never cross that yellow line and that my friend is security in the class room. Are we ready?

Shema

 

I was doing a little investigation into a comment Rick said Wednesday night, about that one God stuff. We have a tendency to take verses out of context so they mean something we want them to mean instead of letting them mean what God wants them to mean. Jewish folks say the Shema every night and every morning "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One" They believe if someone extends the recitation of the last word "one" that Hashem, the one God, will extend their life. We think that is ridiculous there is nothing in the bible that supports that belief. Then look at our beliefs. Christians have to question every thing we believe to make sure the bible as well as reality supports those beliefs. If the bible says something that reality does not support we have to either change our belief or understand why.. 

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

"Be a yardstick of quality. Some people aren't used to an environment where excellence is expected."

---Steve Jobs

Intellectual Assent is Not Enough

James 2:19

 

    You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 

James is speaking to the individual he was referring to in verse 18 "But someone will say,'" You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.'"

 

This is to say, "You contend that faith, apart from works---the mere intellectual assent of the mind---is sufficient to save. Basic among other things to be saved one must believe God is one. The individual believes and that is good. But remember the demons believe and shudder. No one argues that demons are saved so one may believe and yet not be saved.  

 

Believing includes more than intellectual acceptance to the truthfulness of a proposition.

Acceptance of the doctrine of the One True God is a fundamental premise or genuine religion, mere lip service will not suffice. If the simple exercise of belief is sufficient, then those who subscribe to the basic premise of religion should be saved. James say "No."

 

To believe that God is one is a basic doctrine of the bible but it is not enough.

 

   

 

 

 

   

 

 

Also

We also have:

 

http://pray4theusa.com

 

http://www.presidentialprayerteam.com/

 

http://nationaldayofprayer.org/

 

and we have Pray for the World: http://www.febc.org/pray-aw?gclid=COiHxra-lbQCFQGvnQodXi8ARQ

 

Almighty God,

We make our earnest prayer

- that Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy holy protection,

- that thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government;

- and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States of America at large.

And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all

- to do justice,

- to love mercy and

- to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of The Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation.

Grant our supplication, we beseech thee, through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

Amen

 

---George Washington

 

And then there is  PRAYER AND FOOTBALL

But can they still throw the "hail Mary?"

• The University of Tennessee endorses nonsectarian prayer before football games and says it will continue the practice.

• The University of Georgia stopped praying before football games in 1989.

• The University of Mississippi ended the practice many years ago.

• The University of Alabama doesn't pray before football games.

Now we compate the Tennessee football program with prayer and other colleges playing for championships without prayer.

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

It appears Richard's idea is not catching on with our pastor and elders in waiting. 

 

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

"Be a yardstick of quality. Some people aren't used to an environment where excellence is expected."

---Steve Jobs

Pray for Our Country, or is it Nation?

 

 

As I do others, even those who church of Christ folks believe are going to hell for their efforts, I applaud Richard and David for a new idea but it reminds me of the rich man and Lazarus story where the rich man:

 

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

What specifically do we expect God to do? He has established His church, the members of which are failing miserably except in the areas of architecture and rhetoric at which we excel. As did the rich man’s family the world has the bible, the prophets, apostles, AND Christians.

 

Christians prayed that God ensure the best man be elected and argue with his choice. History shows the church does best when persecuted but we spend our time praying for safety and security which God has never provided.

 

We now have:

 

prayforournation.com

prayforournation.org

prayforournation.net transfers you to a Billy Graham site

 

prayforourcountry.us

prayforourcountry.com

prayforourcountry.net

 

Imagine this, those who claim to follow Jesus cannot even agree on how we should pray for our country or is it nation? We each need our own website. Which do you suppose is greater God’s disgust or Satan’s sarcasm? 

 

Jesus prayed “Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.” If God is not going to answer Jesus’ prayer what makes us think he will pay any more attention to us?

 

The bible says pray but not ignorantly or just wishful thinking. It may be time for the Church of Christ to find ways to work with “others of like precious faith” although different.

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

“That is why you develop a brain, so you can think about more than one thing at a time.”
―    Bill Clinton