Re: Newsline Article - Church Growth

 

I understand the bible has many examples of individuals and congregations helping missionaries whom God had told to go leaving them without option if they were to obey. I believe some of those churches in the NT sent Paul and others after God told them he wanted Paul et al to go.

 

Folks say the "great commission" was meant for us but then say we can send. Did Jesus give the apostles the option to go or to send? Surely anyone can help anyone anytime to do something they want to do even though God has not instructed them to do it.

 

We already use the collection for the "poor saints in Jerusalem" as motivation to contribute to our own comforts and rummage sales are sinful. Others agree the bible says to baptize but it really means pour or sprinkle or whatever is convenient.  If we keep the bible in context our responsibilities as well as our options remain clear.

 

 

 

During the interview the father said he had discussed possibility and probability with his son to no avail and when asked said he would not try that again.

 

Following the interview with the father, the interviewer spoke with a mother of different children. Unknown to the interviewer the mother had majored in statistics in college in China, her home country.

 

Since the shooting she says she has been focused on a rule of statistics she learned in college, which she calls the "large number certainty theorem" and explained how it applies. "We know that many people have guns, and we know that a certain number of people have disordered minds or bad intentions, and we also know that this is a huge country. In other words, the base is big. So, you know, mathematically, something somewhere will happen with certainty."

 

Fortunately the father of the 10-year-old did not discuss that theorem with his son.

 

 

 

The "helping us" is where I get off track. We are doing God's bidding why shouldn't he help us, if he can, without being asked? Why wouldn't he? 

 

Jesus said he healed some people to show other folks he had the power to forgive sin. He did one thing that was easily verified to support folks believing another that could not be verified. That was then but today nothing? Are we sure we are not missing something? Are we sure we are as "correct" as we say we are? I doubt it and I wonder and I think of Paul's letter to the church in Thessalonica and his comments about folks not loving truth and God sending a delusion. 

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

[shouting to several prisoners]
Barney Fife: "Now here at the Rock we have two rules. Memorize them until you can say them in your sleep. Rule number one: obey all rules. Rule number two: no writing on the walls."

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 7:25 AM, <abehel@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

People have mental assent but without action there is no real belief.   The situation with the father and son illustrates the deep desire of a parent to accomplish something

positive by using a process that undermines the very purpose of the action.   I deal with trauma, acute stress and anxiety, and PTSD almost every day.   His intent was good

and would have worked with some children, but without knowing a lot of background information about the father and the son and their previous revlationship, it is hard to say

what effect his approach will have long-term, or whether he should have used an entirely different approach.  I would have suggested that all the children as a group, along with

their parents and teachers meet at a neutral place first for an activity, followed by the entire group arriving at their "new school" with parents, teachers, and security officers

present when they went inside to their "new" classroom".    It will be hard for the children to ever go back to their old school.   I know the point of your comment was about

trust, and not a therapeutic approach...just rambling thoughts of mine.

 

Some commands are specific and some have generic applications.   I believe God never intended to say that everyone was to leave their homes and travel the world to

preach.   Plenty of Scriptures in Acts and the Epistles speak of churches sending Paul and contributing to his ministry.   I believe that satisfies the generic meaning of

the passage for those who will do better to stay home and support others.   To my knowledge, though, I can't remember a time when the churches of Christ have ever

had more than 500 foreign missionaries in the field.   That doesn't mean no one was "going" as Christians seem to exist in many countries where we have never sent

and 'American" missionary.   We are not the only Christians charged with the mission of sharing Christ witht he world.

 

What do I believe God will do when we pray for spiritual growth?   I believe when Christians pray for spiritual growth and they stay in the word the Holy Spirit does what

he came to do...He "helps us".  

 

Al

-----Original Message-----
From: John Jenkins
Sent: Dec 30, 2012 9:10 PM
To: abehel@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Newsline Article - Church Growth

When Jesus told the disciples to "go in to all the world" did they have the option to go or to send?

 

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

 

I do not understand they had a choice. Jesus was not speaking to anyone other than those eleven and he was telling them to go. They had no option if they were to obey. If we accept that he was speaking to us we also would have no option but to go.

 

Recently I heard an interview of a father of two children who had survived the school shooting in Connecticut one of the children, a boy I believe 10 or so, cries  lot and refuses to go to school. The father and boy have worked up to going to the school the boy should be attending and walking the halls, holding hands. The boy keeps the keys to the car in his pocket so his father cannot leave without him. When the father attempts to get the boy to "trust" him the boy says, "Last Friday if you had told me I would be safe you would have been wrong." That statement along with the fact the boy keeps the car keys in his pocket while he and his father are walking the halls of the school indicates he does not believe his father and worse does not trust his father. My guess is their relationship is changed forever.

 

Church growth may be hampered by the fact most members 1) do not believe what they are told by preachers/teachers; 2) to not believe one has to be a member of the Church of Christ to be saved; and 3) do not believe assembling with others is necessary nor is reading/studying the  bible necessary. As I mentioned before when in one of your classes you said we want to go to Heaven because that is where our favorite people are and I said no, your favorite people are there each individual has to answer that question for themselves. It appears most people claiming to be Christian do not believe the "company position" on a number of subjects.

 

In your Newsline article when you say church growth depends on prayer what specifically do you expect God to do?

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

[shouting to several prisoners]
Barney Fife: "Now here at the Rock we have two rules. Memorize them until you can say them in your sleep. Rule number one: obey all rules. Rule number two: no writing on the walls."

Newsline Article - Church Growth

When Jesus told the disciples to "go in to all the world" did they have the option to go or to send?

 

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

 

I do not understand they had a choice. Jesus was not speaking to anyone other than those eleven and he was telling them to go. They had no option if they were to obey. If we accept that he was speaking to us we also would have no option but to go.

 

Recently I heard an interview of a father of two children who had survived the school shooting in Connecticut one of the children, a boy I believe 10 or so, cries  lot and refuses to go to school. The father and boy have worked up to going to the school the boy should be attending and walking the halls, holding hands. The boy keeps the keys to the car in his pocket so his father cannot leave without him. When the father attempts to get the boy to "trust" him the boy says, "Last Friday if you had told me I would be safe you would have been wrong." That statement along with the fact the boy keeps the car keys in his pocket while he and his father are walking the halls of the school indicates he does not believe his father and worse does not trust his father. My guess is their relationship is changed forever.

 

Church growth may be hampered by the fact most members 1) do not believe what they are told by preachers/teachers; 2) to not believe one has to be a member of the Church of Christ to be saved; and 3) do not believe assembling with others is necessary nor is reading/studying the  bible necessary. As I mentioned before when in one of your classes you said we want to go to Heaven because that is where our favorite people are and I said no, your favorite people are there each individual has to answer that question for themselves. It appears most people claiming to be Christian do not believe the "company position" on a number of subjects.

 

In your Newsline article when you say church growth depends on prayer what specifically do you expect God to do?

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

[shouting to several prisoners]
Barney Fife: "Now here at the Rock we have two rules. Memorize them until you can say them in your sleep. Rule number one: obey all rules. Rule number two: no writing on the walls."

Was Luke Inspired or Just a Reliable Historian?

The longer one is a believer the less they think like an unbeliever. They take things for granted without question. Those they are trying to influence may not be so trusting.  It seems to me what is scripture and who is inspired are subjects worth investigation.

In your class you mentioned folks thinking the bible difficult to read and to understand. The way the church studies the bible makes it appear to be a very large book. It is smaller than Tolstoy's War and Peace and can be read in less than 80 hours. If the reader is a slow reader say 120 hours or 160 hours or they can listen to it. People read novels but get bored reading the bible. One of the responsibilities of the group is to encourage the individual.

Christian Chronicle has a story:

"Three teens who attend the Concord Road Church of Christ decided to memorize 100 Bible verses each as part of Lads to Leaders/Leaderettes. Jacob Sees, Daniel Stetzinger and Alex Windon challenged the congregation to join them. With the enthusiastic support of the church's six elders, 116 Concord Road members accepted the challenge."

I suspect if the leaders of GSMCOC had shown any interest in the Book of the Month idea more folks would be involved. It takes a few minutes a day and two hours a month to meet with others and talk about what they read. It surely cannot be they do not have the time. Of course they could be too busy. Imagine being too busy to read a book thought to be inspired by their God. We may have too many bibles. If we had less we might see it as important.

The reason for this email: Do you have any idea why Luke is thought to be inspired by anything other than an interest in supporting his friend Theophilus?

Luke:  Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled^[a] among us, ² just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. ³ With this in mind about, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, ⁴ so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

Acts: In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote all that Jesus began to do and to teach ² until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

 

John Jenkins

865-803-8179  cell

Gatlinburg, TN

 

 

 

Email: jrjenki@gmail.com

Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/

          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

 

  

[shouting to several prisoners]

 

 

Barney Fife: "Now here at the Rock we have two rules. Memorize them until you can say them in your sleep. Rule number one: obey all rules. Rule number two: no writing on the walls."

 

 

 

 

All Scripture...

Nice class. My comments address context not application.

 

The English Standard version of Paul's first letter to Timothy reads:

 

"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

 

Paul first refers to Timothy's familiarity with the sacred writings then explains that all scripture is breathed by God etc... Unless the sacred writings are a subset of all scripture the "all scripture" were in existence during Timothy's youth therefore eliminating the possibility of our New Testament being included. Do you suppose the author's of the various books and letters knew or considered they were contributing to what would be come the Bible?

 

Paul says those sacred writings are able to make Timothy wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. I wonder how many agree with Paul's categorization of those sacred writings. I would think folks would think only the New Testament would do that.

 

 

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

[shouting to several prisoners]
Barney Fife: "Now here at the Rock we have two rules. Memorize them until you can say them in your sleep. Rule number one: obey all rules. Rule number two: no writing on the walls."

Security in the Classroom

Our Constitution prohibits government from controlling the media although; Abraham Lincoln did close various newspapers critical of his administration. Congress let him violate the Constitution. Do we want to throw the Constitution under the bus?

These shootings cannot be prevented because we do not understand what security requires. I am interested in hearing how the security measures in place in Sevier County schools would have prevented the Newtown shooting. The fact of the matter is they will not. Our security only annoys those who feel compelled to go along with it.

Security requires multiple armed guards inside and outside all school buildings positioned far enough apart so they cannot be neutralized as a group with weapons in hand ready to be fired. Attack dogs would help especially if they were permitted to run loose at least outside the buildings. Security requires guards be placed on the roof of every school building as well as on the perimeter. Security requires the protected live in a prison. Security requires we lockup every person who looks like a threat, remember the internment of anyone who looked Japanese at the beginning of our participation in WWII? How do you lockup all those who look like Timothy McVeigh? Regardless, we are not ready to do that. We live in a free society and citizens have the right to own and carry weapons. Imagine if the principal as well as the teachers at Newtown had been trained and armed.

I know a woman who teaches in the California prison system. She was trained in hand to hand self defense as well as how to fire a weapon effectively (i.e. to kill). The doors of her classrooms have windows so guards can keep watch and there is a yellow line that separates her from her students. She is instructed to never cross that yellow line and that my friend is security in the class room. Are we ready?

Shema

 

I was doing a little investigation into a comment Rick said Wednesday night, about that one God stuff. We have a tendency to take verses out of context so they mean something we want them to mean instead of letting them mean what God wants them to mean. Jewish folks say the Shema every night and every morning "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One" They believe if someone extends the recitation of the last word "one" that Hashem, the one God, will extend their life. We think that is ridiculous there is nothing in the bible that supports that belief. Then look at our beliefs. Christians have to question every thing we believe to make sure the bible as well as reality supports those beliefs. If the bible says something that reality does not support we have to either change our belief or understand why.. 

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

"Be a yardstick of quality. Some people aren't used to an environment where excellence is expected."

---Steve Jobs

Intellectual Assent is Not Enough

James 2:19

 

    You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 

James is speaking to the individual he was referring to in verse 18 "But someone will say,'" You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.'"

 

This is to say, "You contend that faith, apart from works---the mere intellectual assent of the mind---is sufficient to save. Basic among other things to be saved one must believe God is one. The individual believes and that is good. But remember the demons believe and shudder. No one argues that demons are saved so one may believe and yet not be saved.  

 

Believing includes more than intellectual acceptance to the truthfulness of a proposition.

Acceptance of the doctrine of the One True God is a fundamental premise or genuine religion, mere lip service will not suffice. If the simple exercise of belief is sufficient, then those who subscribe to the basic premise of religion should be saved. James say "No."

 

To believe that God is one is a basic doctrine of the bible but it is not enough.

 

   

 

 

 

   

 

 

Also

We also have:

 

http://pray4theusa.com

 

http://www.presidentialprayerteam.com/

 

http://nationaldayofprayer.org/

 

and we have Pray for the World: http://www.febc.org/pray-aw?gclid=COiHxra-lbQCFQGvnQodXi8ARQ

 

Almighty God,

We make our earnest prayer

- that Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy holy protection,

- that thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government;

- and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States of America at large.

And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all

- to do justice,

- to love mercy and

- to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of The Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation.

Grant our supplication, we beseech thee, through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

Amen

 

---George Washington

 

And then there is  PRAYER AND FOOTBALL

But can they still throw the "hail Mary?"

• The University of Tennessee endorses nonsectarian prayer before football games and says it will continue the practice.

• The University of Georgia stopped praying before football games in 1989.

• The University of Mississippi ended the practice many years ago.

• The University of Alabama doesn't pray before football games.

Now we compate the Tennessee football program with prayer and other colleges playing for championships without prayer.

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

It appears Richard's idea is not catching on with our pastor and elders in waiting. 

 

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

"Be a yardstick of quality. Some people aren't used to an environment where excellence is expected."

---Steve Jobs

Pray for Our Country, or is it Nation?

 

 

As I do others, even those who church of Christ folks believe are going to hell for their efforts, I applaud Richard and David for a new idea but it reminds me of the rich man and Lazarus story where the rich man:

 

“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

What specifically do we expect God to do? He has established His church, the members of which are failing miserably except in the areas of architecture and rhetoric at which we excel. As did the rich man’s family the world has the bible, the prophets, apostles, AND Christians.

 

Christians prayed that God ensure the best man be elected and argue with his choice. History shows the church does best when persecuted but we spend our time praying for safety and security which God has never provided.

 

We now have:

 

prayforournation.com

prayforournation.org

prayforournation.net transfers you to a Billy Graham site

 

prayforourcountry.us

prayforourcountry.com

prayforourcountry.net

 

Imagine this, those who claim to follow Jesus cannot even agree on how we should pray for our country or is it nation? We each need our own website. Which do you suppose is greater God’s disgust or Satan’s sarcasm? 

 

Jesus prayed “Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are.” If God is not going to answer Jesus’ prayer what makes us think he will pay any more attention to us?

 

The bible says pray but not ignorantly or just wishful thinking. It may be time for the Church of Christ to find ways to work with “others of like precious faith” although different.

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

“That is why you develop a brain, so you can think about more than one thing at a time.”
―    Bill Clinton

Is the Devil Omniscient?

I believe you are a receiver of the House to house Heart to heart. In the current version the “All things Considered” column asks “Is the Devil Omniscient?” Does Satan know everything? They answer the question in the first sentence “The devil is not, nor can he be omniscient. If he were omniscient he would be God. By that definition neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit are omniscient since they are said to not know when the end of time will be. Makes me wonder what else they don’t know.

 

Based on what I hear Satan must be omnipresent (everywhere at the same time) since he is credited with tempting everyone in the universe at the same time at least when we are not sleeping. That is a God like ability. We know he is not omnipotent (having unlimited power; able to do anything) since God is said to have thrown him out of wherever God is.

 

Remember when Jesus called Peter Satan? We know it was not Satan because we are told it was Peter. Why do you suppose Jesus mistook Peter for Satan? Do we possibly have an error made by the second ranking member of the Triune? I think Jesus called Peter Satan because Peter was attempting to discourage Jesus from completing God’s plan. If I am correct when individuals promote Satan’s agenda it could be said that Satan was doing it when individuals promote God’s agenda it could be said that God was doing it. But is that correct?

 

Don’t ask Al or Rick they will start a one-year class on the topic.

 

During Colonial times people wrote letters to a variety of individuals including family members, friends, newspapers, authors etc. to discuss various topics political, religious, etc. Since education was limited to women and as a rule they were not permitted to travel very far from home without their husband or some other man they used letters to educate themselves. I tried to get something like that going but apparently Christians believe the bible is best discussed within one’s self. Imagine if college students learned in the manner Christians learn lectures and self study with no tests? Imagine your doctor learning medicine that way and then avoid him at all costs.

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

“That is why you develop a brain, so you can think about more than one thing at a time.”
―    Bill Clinton

Father Knows Best?

A while back Bob Adair asked me to make comments for the evening fly through of the Lord's Supper. The result was quite a reaction since a few days later Rick took me to lunch. The stated purpose was to talk about a possible job working with him in Malaysia but based on his "OH, by the way" question at the end the real purpose was to see if I was a heretic. I figure Al, as a good pastor would, asked him to check me out. Enough folks complained that Al felt it necessary to provide a disclaimer the following Sunday. 

The Church of Christ is very Pharisaical. Folks find it difficult nay impossible to accept that they are more stick-in-the-mud than Jesus. Jesus was revolutionary! He spoke with women in public every day and they spoke with him. He included both married women and single women in his band of disciples. For that alone husbands could have divorced them or even killed them as could their fathers and brothers. Those women traipsed around with him and supported him. He permitted a woman (in public, no less) to wipe his feet with her hair. That was at a time when a woman whose hair wasn't tied up was looked upon as a seductress. Imagine our reaction. The Church of Christ would have been as critical of Jesus as the pharisees and I am convinced the men of the Restoration Movement would not be accepted in the pulpit of the church today. What the church needs is serious persecution to force it decide what is important. Maybe that is God's reason for stuffing the ballot box for Obama. I guess Father knows best is still applicable.

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens. But it is never gone.”
― Rose Kennedy

The Puritans

There is a widespread modern misconception regarding the term Puritan. Today many people believe good Puritans abstained from all sensual pleasures, and certainly before marriage. Actually, the religious denomination now known as Congregationalist acquired the label "Puritan" for reasons that had nothing to do with moral purity in the modern sense. The movement arose in seventeenth-century England with the purpose of purifying the government-sanctioned Church of England of its Catholic vestiges; hence the name "Puritan." Without letting go of the myth of the Puritans as puritanical, we cannot comprehend why John Adams and Abigail Smith caused barely a ripple when, in the fall of 1763, more than a year before they married, they took a trip together---apparently alone. 

Restoring the Church

Many individuals take credit for defining insanity as: "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."  By that definition the church is insane."

 

Al's sermons on restoring the church are like sermons on mom and apple pie who would disagree? The question is how. Lacking anyone stepping forward I will.

 

It is not practical to expect a man to deliver two, thirty to forty-five minute, presentations week after week year after year; teach one or two classes a week; be on call 24/7 to the entire membership. Jonathan Winters and Tim Conway while talented were never successful being the "star" in weekly television series. Trying to come up with new material every week was too much to expect. They made good "guest appearance" people but not main character people.

 

Over the years, in response to a fair number of my emails Al has responded that he is too tired to think.  Considering what congregations expect of their preacher most preachers are too tired to think. Their thirty to forty-five minute presentations are the result of being too tired to think. One change the church must make is get back to the biblical use of preachers. Al and most preachers are not gospel preachers; they are the keynote speaker at the weekly assembly. 

 

We claim to follow the New Testament example of Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them… except we change it to "on the first day of the week when we gather together to listen to the preacher speak we take a few minutes to eat the Lord's Supper." At Polly's funeral/memorial service as with most funerals/memorial services the deceased is talked about more than Jesus is talked about during what we claim to be our "remembrance" of Jesus.

 

"As a convenience" we claim to follow Paul's instructions to the church at Corinth: "Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem. If it seems advisable that I should go also, they will accompany me" except we change the purpose to collect money we will use mostly on ourselves. We are misusing Paul's instructions. If we can change the purpose of the contribution Paul is writing about we can change the purpose of baptism and other instructions found in the bible.  

 

Church leaders must understand why the majority of their members are absentee members; why the majority elect not to attend the classes; choose not to attend most assemblies; choose not be involved.

 

David Platt says the question is: "How can we in the church best unleash the people of God in the Spirit of God with the Word of God for the glory of God in the world?"

 

The church must look at everything it does not only function but form, The question is not "What is wrong?" the question is "What is the best use of our resources?"

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

"Man's most valuable trait is a judicious sense of what not to believe."

 —Euripides

Heaven would hardly be heaven if we could define it ---William E Biederwolf

John wrote in Revelation 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

 

How possibly does God communicate a reality of which we are completely unaware? Life in heaven will be a qualitatively different kind of life from the one we have known in earth's space and time. Even thinking of heaven as "an unending eternity for ever and ever" is to think in human terms, not God's as are all concepts of heaven. To be eternal is to have the kind of qualities which endure outside of time.

 

Whatever new bodies we are given will be tailor-made for heaven. Just right for what we're meant to do there, whatever that is. No need to worry about it before we get there. Function will automatically follow form, just as our heavenly form will reflect the function which God intended from the moment he first conceived to create us.  Does God have new thoughts? Something he never thought of before? The term "first conceived" is in human terms not God's.

 

We cannot think about heaven in terms that are even close to reality. For David it was enough to think: I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever. Did he need more details? Did he need gold streets or pearly gates or was it enough to know: in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore. David was satisfied with looking forward to relationship with God not possible here.

 

Heaven is the final destination of the righteous; the home of God and the angels and what we know fits in a thimble. For us to spend weeks on a subject about which the Bible says little seems to me to be comparable to what the Catholic Church has been doing for centuries except their subject was Limbo

 

In 2007 the Roman Catholic Church finally buried the concept of limbo, the place where centuries of tradition and teaching held that babies who die without baptism went. The Commission said limbo reflected an "unduly restrictive view of salvation" and their 41-page document concluded: "there are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in revelation." Keep in mind the Catholic Church has been debating the subject for centuries holding conferences to discuss the subject, and coming to no conclusions and their final verdict is based on "hope."

 

Our teachers teach whatever they want for as long as they want and like our government leaders start things with no end-date in view because our pastor says "we are not in a hurry."

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

"Man's most valuable trait is a judicious sense of what not to believe."

 —Euripides

Matthew chapter 18

 

I read in the minutes that someone recommended the men establish some relevant guidelines/procedures concerning the desired term of an elder, a possible re-qualification process and any other relevant conditions which the men may wish to impose. 

 

As you know Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton had different views of the Constitution. Jefferson thought the federal government could do only what the Constitution permits while Hamilton thought the federal government could do whatever the Constitution did not expressly prohibit.

 

With reference to the bible historically the Church of Christ has come down on Jefferson's side in that the church can do only what the bible permits. Other churches have adopted Hamilton's thoughts that the church can do anything the bible does not expressly prohibit thus we have infant baptism and plural marriage thanks to Martin Luther and others.

 

Historically the plea of preachers in the church of Christ has been, "we speak where the Bible speaks and we are silent where the Bible is silent."

 

The bible expressly tells us the church had elders but nowhere does the bible tell us how to get rid of those elders. The bible does not provide for term limits of elders.

 

How about Matthew 18;15-17 as a template for correcting and removing members including members who happen to be elders or deacons?

 

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.  But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.  

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

"Man's most valuable trait is a judicious sense of what not to believe."

 —Euripides

Elders Miscellaneous

 

It is extremely difficult for Americans to intentionally give up "control." As does Dollywood Christians like to believe we practice "servant leadership."

 

Luke told Theophilus "A dispute also arose among them, as to which of them was to be regarded as the greatest. And he said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those in authority over them are called benefactors. But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves." Do we believe that? No. We do not apply what we intellectually understand.

 

Paul told the Christians in Galatia: "For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another."

 

Power is a great attraction for many and some people enjoy being able to exert authority over others. Christians often fail to comprehend the real meaning of power and authority in the kingdom and confuse it with authority in the world.   The centurion's authority is typical of authority in the world: "For I too am a man set under authority, with soldiers under me: and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come,' and he comes; and to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." This is not the kind of authority given to elders in the church.

 

If the bible is so clear regarding the nature of kingdom authority then why is it that so many churches have authoritarian elders?  And why is it that many newly appointed elders feel that their opinions have suddenly become superior to others in the church by virtue of their appointment to a leadership position?  They are ignorant of the bible; they are ignorant of the flock; they fear losing control; they fear false teaching; they fail to appreciate what others are doing.

 

Elders are servants who hold a special office of leadership in the church and because of this, an attitude of submission and deference toward them should exist within the congregation. That is difficult. In the corporate world when an individual is promoted to a leadership or management position they are often required to transfer so they will be leading/managing people other than their use-to-be peers. It is difficult to go from peer to leader/manager for both the peer and the leader/manager.

 

The author of Hebrews told his/her readers: "Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. …Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account.  Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."

 

Christians are obligated to listen to the advice of their leaders. Elders are to lead by persuading and convincing others to follow them.

 

Leadership requires that the elders give the church a sense of direction. It is foolish for the elders to call the church together and ask them to make an uninformed decision about missions' strategy for example.  The meeting would result in the pooling of ignorance. Kind of describes our bible classes and on occasion the Men's Meeting itself. Communication is job one.

 

The majority are not and will never be the measure of what is right. Not everyone can be satisfied on all occasions and those who find themselves out of step with a consensus of the church should defer to the wishes of the majority, making every decision unanimous.

 

When a man ceases to be qualified he is no longer an elder stubbornly remaining in the position not withstanding. Elders are not temporary nor does the bible support recertification. As with the Constitution, without bible support elders are elders until they resign, or become unqualified.

 

If elders are keeping watch over the souls of the members of the congregation and will have to give an account does their responsibility and accountability extend past their term in office? As with the constitution without a bible example there is no term limit.

 

I believe you were an elder at one time. Did you know the congregation was afraid of you, didn't trust you and wanted to maintain control over you in case the eldership went to your head?  Our elders will know. They were in on the discussion and heard the concerns.  

John Jenkins
865-803-8179  cell
Gatlinburg, TN


Email: jrjenki@gmail.com
Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/
          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

''Facebook is like an endless cocktail party where everyone shows up at a different time and slaps a yellow Post-it note on the refrigerator."

 —New York Times

Maybe the Tea_Party Should Rethink

I imagine the Tea-Party is fit to be tied: Obama  decisively re-elected, same-sex marriage adopted by voters in some states and anti-abortion candidates defeated in conservative red states. Most folks are not gay and most folks will not have an abortion. Maybe these are not government issues.

Pro-Life is a Non Issue

Being Pro-Life is to be on the losing side of the discussion. If you do not like abortion, do not have one but do not try to interject government into a decision that is not yours.

Romans 13:1-7 Submit to Governing Authorities

In his letter to the Romans, Paul calls for Christians to submit to governing authorities, because their authority is derived from God, the State will punish those who do wrong, and bring wrath against them.

 

13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and your will receive his approval, 4 for she is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

 

Christians should obey authorities because they are established by God.

Christians are called to give what they owe the state, whether taxes, debt, respect or honor. Authorities are "God's servants"; nothing more, no matter in what esteem the authorities might hold themselves in. The state's task to punish evil, something that individual Christians must not do. If the state transgresses from this role, it is not acting in accordance with its purpose. Even though God has established the authorities, they are not without judgment.

 

Romans 13:1 echoes to some extent Matthew 22:21 "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God." The most common interpretation of this section is that our ultimate allegiance is to God, but this does not nullify other responsibilities, if not in conflict with our main purpose.

 

That being true, the colonies had no biblical basis for armed rebellion to England thereby forfeiting any right to consider the United States God's people.

Next Bus to Heaven

On the subject of taking a later bus to heaven does Jesus' comment relate to our thinking concerning our preference to wait for a future bus to heaven?

"Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Does not wanting to leave our spouse or wanting to see our children or grandchildren graduate, marry, have children, etc. instead of being with Jesus suggest we love them more than we love Jesus?

I am not talking about being suicidal just our attitude. Paul said:

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

Is remaining here a benefit to Jesus or just our preference?

 

John Jenkins

865-803-8179  cell

Gatlinburg, TN

 

 

 

Email: jrjenki@gmail.com

Blogs: http://littlepigeon.blogspot.com/

          http://alumcave.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

 

''Being an executive requires a combination of charisma, a capacity to sustain boredom, and the ability to shallowly perform on harrying schedules.''

 —Nassim Nichols Taleb